And of course, the “old boys” like to talk about the good old days, when the synodical support was almost 100%, and when pastors got through seminary with no debt. They still paid tuition, but it was very cheap, almost nominal.

I hear you about not being entirely honest re struggles and discernment.

I’ve wondered about how one is supposed to explore alternate pastoral calls… like, what if one is gifted in administration and would make a great EP? Or if one were energized by the prospect of interim or redevelopment ministry? Or by chaplaincy at a major airport (or some other non-clinical setting)?

I do have a 3 page “How to pass the ord’s” document that I have made up for anyone who wants it. Just some hints from being a reader as to what they are looking for. E-mail me if you would like a copy.
hchapman@fpcmarion.org

As per peer reviews, I had (and still have) friends from seminary who I didn’t think were fit for ministry. Thankfully, their sense of call was denied by the process. However, these were/are my friends, and I would have felt very awkward about evaluating their fitness for ministry. I know they are nuts, but even nuts need friends and advocates!

In addition, financial support is unrealistic in my opinion – I have found the committee very willing to encourage me to take on debt in amounts that I am not comfortable with. Even going so far as to label my unwillingness to assume the debt as a lack of faith. At the same time, I have also heard the committee members complain about people coming out of seminary with debt loads that preclude certain calls. Well, duh!!

Very true. I don’t think that our churches realize how much debt that many of us have had to acquire to gain our education (undergrad and grad). Especially when they are from another generation, and they think that we are irresponsible and lazy for getting into debt.

Martha said:

But it seems that committee struggle to do their work when they only talk with people once a year. I think the process needs to be changed, but just am unsure what would work or how to improve it.

You’re right. These committees are supposed to assess our aptitude to be good pastors, but they hardly know us. And we hardly know their first names.

Who can assess our aptitudes? Our Professors would probably be right about a candidate 80% of the time. Our colleagues (other students) would be right 95% of the time. We all knew who the creeps, perverts, liars, and cheaters were, as well as the people who were caring, inspiring, genuine, and loving.

Peer reviews would be tricky… but I bet they would be a trove of information!

I am sorry to hear about your difficulty in the inquirer/candidate/call process. I have to admit that I did not have those struggles. My struggles with the process came in the ordination exams. I knew my material, but my test anxiety left me paralyzed and I struggled to answer questions. I did have to retake them because I didn’t answer the questions in the right format. (I needed a Janet who helped me see ~~ you know your stuff just word it properly)

But I do wonder how presbytery’s can help this process. I sit in the presbytery meetings as we examine candidates for ministry, and think “are they qualified?” I often know very little about them except for their one page statement of faith. So I try and trust the process and hope the committee has done their work. But it seems that committee struggle to do their work when they only talk with people once a year. I think the process needs to be changed, but just am unsure what would work or how to improve it.

The Presbyterian ordination exams seemed to be something like the general exams I did for my doctoral degree, that is something to really study and prepare for and then pray you could keep your thoughts together enough to give coherent answers. A big problem with the PC(USA)ordination exams is that it is months until students knew if they have passed and if they haven’t it might be another 6 months until the exam is administered again and meanwhile they have no money to live on, can not interview for a pastor’s job, etc. One fellow student I knew, who struggled to pass the theology exam, was doing an excellent job as the solo student pastor at a small church (his mentor pastor was very ill with cancer). I tutored this fellow student for his theological exams (he knew the content, he just had not answered the questions exactly as asked). By the time I discovered he needed help he was preparing for his third try (which he passed), but this was all so unnecessary. It took me only about 30 minutes of reading his previous failed exam to see what the problem was and then I told him I could help him and I did. I did not know nearly as much theology as he did; I just knew how to answer the question asked by the exam and how to teach him to do this.

After observing the ordination process for about five years as I studied for a Master of Theological Studies at the local Methodist seminary,I think the PC(USA) needs to gather together people like you Carol and others concerned with seminary education and the future leadership in the church, review the entire ordination process and come up with some suggestions on how to make it better.

(Note: I am Presbyterian (PC(USA).

In seminary we were advised to “protect your call” – with fairly clear indication that committee meetings were not the place to put out the laundry. I didn’t take it to mean that we had to hide, nor to be suspicious of every question thrown our way. I took it that we were not to be stupid–don’t shoot yourself in the foot. I’m now over 4 years into the first call.

I was blessed with a care committee which served as my advocate and frequent encourager. I was also blessed with a home church that supported us through the process. I was blessed in that my tuition was fully paid. But, having a family of five go through seminary meant we had living expenses. But God had provided for this in funds originally set aside (with employer matching) for retirement. So, we came out of seminary without debt and were able to take a call to a small, rural church. This has been a real blessing – to serve in a very supportive congregation. I offer this to let folks know that sometimes the process does work in a reasonable and caring manner.